- Μηνύματα
- 4.544
- Reaction score
- 3.085
Για τους παρακολουθούντες τα "καλώδια" και τις συζητήσεις περί αυτών, θα θυμούνται ότι εδώ είχα γράψει κάποια πράγματα σχετικά με ένα review του Michael Fremer στο Stereophile για κάποια πανάκριβα καλώδια της Ισπανικής Fono Acustica, για τα υλικά που ισχυρίζονται ότι χρησιμοποιούν και τις μεθόδους κατασκευής των interconnects της σειράς Armonico. Μάλιστα, στο τέλος εκείνου του post, είχα υποσχεθεί (στον εαυτό μου πιο πολύ), ότι θα του έστελνα ένα email, για να δω τί θέση θα πάρει και τί θα μου απαντήσει.
Έκτοτε, και αφού όντως του έστειλα το μήνυμα, έχουμε ανταλλάξει κάμποσα emails, κυρίως γιατί αποφάσισε - προς τιμήν του - να διερευνήσει τα λεγόμενά μου και να απευθυνθεί στον κατασκευαστή, ώστε να δωθούν οι απαραίτητες διευκρινήσεις.
Εάν δεν σας κάνει κόπο, τα παραθέτω:
Α. Το πρώτο μου μήνυμα στις 29-5-11
Τίτλος: In pursuit of truth
Dear Editors of Stereophile:
I was tempted to write this letter, after reading Michael Fremer’s “Analog Corner” in June 2011 issue, where he surveys cables from Fono Acustica (Spain), Stealth Audio Cables (USA), Tara Labs (USA) and ZenSati Aps (Denmark). I need to make a statement before I place my comments: I am a very long time Stereophile reader and subscriber (over 2.5 decades) and since I started reading it, I never lost a single issue. This means that I value and appreciate the works of all editors in it and I use them as a valuable and very useful tool to implement my audiophile hobby works through all these years.
And I thank you for it.
After this statement, I feel that that I can go ahead with my comments. In page 35 of this issue, Mr. Fremer says:
“Designer Felix Avalos told me, at the 2011 Consumer Electronics Show, that his pricey Armonico line of Fono Acustica cables, hand made in Andalucía, Spain, uses a proprietary alloy of precious metals, whose formulation was based on listening tests (??? – my own question marks), as well as Teflon and air dielectrics and premium Oyiade connectors. (Fono Acustica advertises on my website). The wires are terminated using a solder (underlining is mine, again) that's made of an alloy of almost 100% silver (!!! - ??? – again, exclamation and questions marks are mine) and it is very difficult to work with. Each cable requires approximately 20 hours of construction and burn-in time, according to the company's web site (it is true that in company’s web site they claim that they use a solder alloy, approaching 100% silver content), but how this time is apportioned is not specified….”
I have no reason and perhaps not even the right to disagree with Mr. Fremer’s survey conclusions. Nor can I criticize him for transferring in his survey text what the company’s man told him, which is also reported in their web site. However, what I feel that I have the right to criticize is the thoughtless (perhaps, misguided) transfer of the above. Mr. Fremer is a well known reviewer, editor, writer and scientist. In his writing, he has always to consider scientific and technological data. Allow me to mention a few: Silver is a semi-precious metal, therefore expensive, and well known for its excellent conductivity properties, against which other metals are compared. In some cases, where cost is no object, it can be preferred and used, even if the performance superiority it offers is not directly proportional to the final cost of the product. This is known, understandable and perhaps accepted, too. What is not understandable is how someone can claim that soldering can be done with an alloy of almost 100% silver.
Metallurgy and technology of metal joining uses three main methods: Welding, Brazing and Soldering (there are other methods, too, like casting, riveting etc., but these are out of our concern). Welding requires the joining metal parts to melt and participate to the joining process. To do it, high temperatures are required, usually achieved with an electric (voltaic) arc or the use of an oxygen/acetylene flame. Brazing also requires high temperatures, but the joining parts do not melt. They are heated below their critical point and the joining material is melted, to achieve the joining. By American Welding Society definition, brazing is a welding process in which the filler metal has a meltingpoint higher than 800 deg. F (425 deg. C), but lower than that of the metal of metals being joined, and in which thefiller metal is drawn into the joint by capillary attraction. Brazing method also requires a flame to be done. Soldering is generally considered as a “cold” method. It requires the melting of the joining material only (as in Brazing) but the joining parts are not heated too much and anyway heating is done much below the critical point. It is generally similar to Brazing, except that the filler metals used, melt attemperatures below 427 deg. C (800 deg. F). Generally speaking, flame or arc are not used in Soldering.
Silver is not a metal that can be melted at low temperatures, like lead, zinc or tin. Its melting point is about 961 to 962 deg. C (or 1762-1763 deg. F). Even if it is used in other brazing alloys, where percentages vary from 45% to almost 60%, the melting temperatures are not lower than 870-880 deg. C (1598-1616 deg. F). In soldering alloys, silver content has to be kept at low percentages, with low-temp melting metals like tin and/or zinc being at much higher percentages, to allow low melting temperatures. An almost 100% silver alloy WILL NOT melt with soldering “cold” process. And even if special methods are used, the high melting temperature of the alloy will destroy any synthetic insulating material, used for the fabrication of a cable.
A small comment on the first sentence only: How can a cable factory, especially an AUDIO CABLE factory to conduct listening tests, not on cables, but on alloys? And from them, to result in the final formulation of the alloy, that’s going to be used for the fabrication of a cable? I cannot even think that a such a factory has a production line from “A” to “Z”, meaning that it can produce its own alloys, test them and then differentiate them accordingly, to end up at the final product, which shall be used for cable fabrication.
I hope that my letter is published, but most of all, I hope to get a comment/reply from Mr. Fremer. Thank you for having the time to read it.
Panagiotis Melas
Kallithea-Greece
Β. Η απάντηση στις 1-6-11
Dear Mr. Melas:
First of all I do not claim in any way to be a "scientist." Far from it. I do try to understand as best as I can the technical claims and issues behind the products I review.
I am always happy to allow manufacturers to hang themselves using their own words.
I understand your problem with the "almost 100% silver" solder claim and perhaps I should have said something about that claim or questioned the manufacturer.
However, I am not sure I understand your "alloy" comments.
Mr. Avalos claims he had wire produced using various combinations of metals (alloys) and listened to those cables. He did not claim to listen to "alloys" independent of their use in cables!
Sincerely,
Michael (not a 'scientist') Fremer
senior contributing editor
Γ. Η δική μου ανταπάντηση στις 6-6-11
Dear Mr. Fremer,
Thank you for taking time to read my email and to send me a reply. I really appreciate it. It took me a few days to see your message, because I was away from home for a while.
I did not mean to offend you, by calling you a “scientist”. In my language (Greek), the word Episteme (pronounced: E-PI-STΙ-MI) stands for the English word “Science”. It is produced from the words: “EPI” and “ISTEME” (pronounced respectively: E-PΙ; and Ι-STI –MI). “EPI” means “over” or “above” and “ISTEME” means ”stand”. So, the scientist is the person who “stands above” his (or her) field of knowledge, in other words the person who fully acquires this field. In Wikipedia, in the link for “Science”, the following are noted in the text:
The word "science" is from Old French, and in turn from Latin scientia,which was one of several words for "knowledge" in that language. In philosophical contexts, scientia and "science" were used to translate the Greek word epistemē, which had acquired a specific definition in Greek philosophy, especially Aristotle, as a type of reliable knowledge which is built up logically from strong premises, and can be communicated and taught.
The link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science
In its broader meaning, the term “Science” initially meant the organized body of the established and documented knowledge. In other words: a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the world (or any subject, I would say) , as noted in the above link of Wikipedia. Therefore, why an expert like you (and others, perhaps in the field) not to be considered a scientist? ( I could continue supporting my thesis on this matter, claiming, for example, that today in modern universities, experts in any field are usually called to teach their knowledge and expertise to the students, as in my profession, but I’ll let it go). Anyway, if you would like to disclaim this, I have no objection. For me, however, you remain one of my favorite reviewers.
As far as the silver alloy, it would be interesting to hear something from the company. If not at this time, I hope there will be an opportunity in the future. My comments for the other alloys were as much simplified as possible, to show that it is physically impossible to use soldering on an almost 100% silver alloy. I explained very roughly and in simplicity the various welding and brazing methods (metal joining), to indicate that silver, either as the base material or the filler, needs high temperature to be used (the brazing method), making it impossible to work on cables.
The matter for the listening tests on various alloys in cables, is fully understood, after your clarification. Thanks.
Very truly yours
Panagiotis Melas
Marine Superintendent Engineer
and Technical Advisor (retired)
Kallithea - Greece
Δ. Η δευτερολογία του, απάντηση στο παραπάνω μήνυμα, στις 7-6-11
Thank you so much for that extensive and interesting definition! I received this response from the manufacturer:
Well it was only a matter of time before some one questions my statement of “An almost 100% silver alloy. We have already received a couple of emails from people who want to know our secret process, and in my experience this type of people don’t really care about sound quality/music which is the only reason why Fono Acustica is creating products that are for the true music lover. People can debate whether they like or dislike how our products sound BUT no one can deny that they make a difference. This type of emails is the same to me like when people argue that cables don’t make a difference.
Whilst I agree with most of his comments, in order to explain our process I will have to reveal our secret which for obvious reasons Fono Acustica is not prepare to do.
If you recall, I mentioned to you in Vegas that this process is difficult to work with which is part of the reason why our cables cost what they cost.
“And even if special methods are used, the high melting temperature of the alloy will destroy any synthetic insulating material, used for the fabrication of a cable."
Not when is done right, we use Teflon on our ICs and at the beginning we used on our speaker cables as well. We are no longer using Teflon on our speaker cables, we have found that our speaker cables sound better without Teflon or any other insulation on the wire itself. We insert our precious metal wire alloy on a very high temperature resistance silicon tube (custom made tolerance).
The Jewellery industry is been using silver soldering for many years, Fono Acustica is just making it work for high end audio cables.
(Ακολουθεί πίνακας, που περιέχει διάφορα κράμματα ασημιού, που χρησιμοποιούνται στην κοσμηματοτεχνία, εκ των οποίων, αυτό με τη μεγαλύτερη περιεκτικότητα σε ασήμι είναι το L-Ag 75 και λιώνει στους 770 β. Κ, ενώ αυτό με τη μικρότερη περιεκτικότητα σε ασήμι είναι το L-Ag 55, που λιώνει στου 650 β. Κ)
Ε. Η δική μου δευτερολογία (ή τριτολογία), σήμερα 7-6-11
Τίτλος: Still in pursuit of truth
Dear Mr. Fremer,
Thanks a lot for spending your time to respond to my second message. I must also thank you for making my previous message comments known to Fono Acustica, thus allowing Mr. Avalon to provide an explanation for them.
To quote his words: “….We have already received a couple of emails from people who want to know our secret process, and in my experiencethis type of people don’t really care about sound quality/music, which is the only reason why Fono Acustica is creating products that are for the music lover…”
Well, isn’t this a kind-of arbitrary statement? How in the world, Mr. Avalon knows who cares or doesn’t care about music and the quality of its reproduction? Needless to say of course, that there are no “secrets” in metallurgy and the technology around it. His own words contradict the meanings in his statement. Let me explain:
“Not when is done right, we use Teflon on our ICs…..We insert our precious wire alloy on a very high temperature resistance silicon tube (custom made tolerance)”
Well, are they using Teflon or not? If they are, where this “very high temperature resistance silicon tube” gets in? It would be either a Teflon tube or that “silicon tube”, not both! I am not sure about the “Very High Temperature Resistance” of any silicon tube, but I can accept it. However, it seems that Teflon is finally used (it is clearly stated in company’s web site), as the insulating material. And if Teflon is used – which has extremely fine dielectric properties, therefore is one of the best, if not the best insulation – then we have to go back to my previous assertion that high temperatures would destroy any synthetic insulation material.
As we all know, Teflon, even in its best industrial composition, the DuPont Teflon AF amorphous fluoropolymer resin, or the Teflon PFA, retains its thermal properties at no more than 360 deg C. Actually, this is the upper physical limit. In fact, the maximum working temperature with Teflon AF is 260 deg. C. Actually, Teflon AF starts decomposing at 360 deg C. and it is completely decomposed at 450 deg. C. The following are useful links, to obtain such kind of information:
http://www.epm.com/ptfe_specs.htm
http://www2.dupont.com/Teflon_Industrial/en_US/assets/downloads/h75334.pdf
http://www.lenntech.com/teflon.htm
Given all above, I really can’t see any method of “soldering” for an “almost 100% silver alloy”. Unless of course, a high quality “silver” solder is used, even with a 10% silver in it (really very difficult to work with). It’s not bad for Fono Acustica to admit this, as a part of their interconnects fabrication. It would neither destroy their reputation, nor the alleged performance of their cables.
One last comment, related to above and the quoted table:
In this table, the word “solder” in wrongly used. This word may be commonly used between jewellers, but it does not reflect the technically correct method. Especially, if someone checks the various “soldering” alloys in that table and the related working temperatures, he (or she) will understand that “soldering” cannot be applied, only brazing can (please, see my first message, where I explain the difference between soldering and brazing, I already gave some silver alloy examples, used for silver brazing).
Brazing requires the presence of a high-temperature flame, to melt the filler material, period.
Cable manufacturing and flame are two factors that cannot coincide.
Thank you for your great work, Mr. Fremer, on Stereophile. And thank you for all your great work in the past, no matter which magazine this was published. I have kept it in my library all previous issues of Stereophile and TAS, with your reviews and articles, although my wife wishes to get rid of them (it’s true that we have a space limitation).
Very Truly Yours
Panagiotis Melas
Greece
Με λίγα λόγια, εάν σας κούρασα και αν κάποιοι έχουν δυσκολία στα Αγγλικά (πολύ λογικό, άλλωστε), τα μηνύματα που ανταλλάξαμε και που ίσως συνεχίσουμε να ανταλλάσσουμε περιέχουν τα εξής:
Το αρχικό δικό μου ρωτάει το περιοδικό (και εμμέσως τον συντάκτη, τον οποίο μέσα σε όλα τα άλλα, αποκάλεσα και επιστήμονα) πώς γίνεται να δέχεται άκριτα όσα του λέει ένας κατασκευαστής, χωρίς να τα φιλτράρει κάποια δεδομένα, και κυρίως αυτό της κατασκευής καλωδίων interconnects, όπου εφαρμόζονται μεθοδοι "ψυχρής" συγκόλλησης (soldering) βυσμάτων (και ίσως των υπολοίπων μερών του καλωδίου) με συγκολλητικό υλικό κάποιο κράμμα με περιεκτικότητα σε ασήμι σχεδόν 100%. Του έβαλα, βέβαια κι άλλο ερωτηματικό, σχετικά με το κατά πόσον ο κατασκευαστής μπορεί να επιλέγει κράμματα με την "ακουστική" μέθοδο.
Στην απάντησή του, μου είπε ότι θα έπρεπε όντως να φιλτράρει την πληροφορία και να έχει ρωτήσει τον κατασκευαστή για τις μεθόδους συγκόλλησης με συγκολλητικό υλικό τέτοιου είδους, απαρνήθηκε τον τίτλο του "επιστήμονα" και μου έδωσε μια αληθοφανή (κατά πόσον είναι αληθινή ή όχι δεν με απασχολεί) εξήγηση σχετικά με την "ακουστική" επιλογή των κραμμάτων για το βασικό υλικό των καλωδίων.
Στη ανταπάντησή μου, του εξήγησα την έννοια της ΕΠΙΣΤΗΜΗΣ και του Επιστήμονα και επέμεινα ότι "ψυχρή" κόλληση (soldering, σε αντιδιαστολή με τις άλλου είδους "θερμές" συγκολλήσεις, όπως η ηλεκτροσυγκόλληση και η οξυγονοκόλληση - welding & brazing) δεν είναι δυνατόν να εφαρμοστεί με συγκολλητικό υλικό το σχεδόν καθαρό ασήμι, για τούτο - είπα - καλό είναι να έχουμε και την άποψη του κατασκευαστή.
Στη δευτερολογία του, μου έστειλε την απάντηση του κατασκευαστή, ο οποίος, ούτε λίγο ούτε πολύ, ισχυρίστηκε ότι τέτοιου είδους μηνύματα προέρχονται από ανθρώπους που δεν ενδαιφέρονται γαι τη μουσική και την ποιότητα αναπαραγωγής της, αλλά σκοπεύουν μόνο να κάνουν κακή κριτική (κάτι τέτοιο υπονοεί, γενικά). Επίσης λέει - ο κατασκευαστής - ότι είναι αναγκασμένος να αποκαλύψει την "κρυφή" μέθοδο κατασκευής και συγκόλλησης, ισχυριζόμενος ότι για μονωτικό χρησιμοποιούν Teflon, που - όπως λέει - δεν αλλοιώνεται από τις υψηλές θερμοκρασίες συγκόλλησης ενώ παραθέτει ένα πίνακα, όπου το ασήμι και τα κράμματά του χρησιμοποιούνται στην κατασκευή κοσμημάτων, με παρόμοιες μεθόδους (μας φώτισε!!).
Τέλος, στη δική μου σημερινή δευτερολογία (ή τριτολογία), επανέρχομαι και εξηγώ στον συντάκτη ότι τα όσα ισχυρίζεται ο κύριος της Fono Acustica, δεν είναι σωστά (θα έπρεπε να του έλεγα ότι δεν είναι σοβαρά, βέβαια), τόσο διότι η συγκόλληση με τέτοιου είδους κράμματα, ακόμα κι αυτά που παραθέτει στον πίνακα, απαιτούν πολύ υψηλές θερμοκρασίες, άρα φλόγα (και όχι κολλητήρι) και αφ' ετέρου ακόμα και το Teflon, στην καλύτερή του βιομηχανική μορφή (Teflon AF), λιώνει στους 260 β. Κ και κυριολεκτικά αποσυντίθεται στους 360 βαθμούς. Ενώ αυτού του είδους τα συγκολλητικά υλικά απαιτούν θερμοκρασίες μίνιμουμ 670-680 β. Κ.
Αναμένω με περιέργεια την απάντησή του.
(Ελπίζω να μην σας κούρασα, αλλά ούτε κι εγώ περίμενα ότι θα έχουμε τέτοιας έκτασης ανταλλαγή μηνυμάτων. Ένα καλό μάθημα για όλους μας, ώστε να φιλτράρουμε τί μας τσαμπονάνε οι διάφοροι σωτήρες του συστήματός μας - φονιάδες της τσέπης μας).
Καλό βράδυ.
-
Έκτοτε, και αφού όντως του έστειλα το μήνυμα, έχουμε ανταλλάξει κάμποσα emails, κυρίως γιατί αποφάσισε - προς τιμήν του - να διερευνήσει τα λεγόμενά μου και να απευθυνθεί στον κατασκευαστή, ώστε να δωθούν οι απαραίτητες διευκρινήσεις.
Εάν δεν σας κάνει κόπο, τα παραθέτω:
Α. Το πρώτο μου μήνυμα στις 29-5-11
Τίτλος: In pursuit of truth
Dear Editors of Stereophile:
I was tempted to write this letter, after reading Michael Fremer’s “Analog Corner” in June 2011 issue, where he surveys cables from Fono Acustica (Spain), Stealth Audio Cables (USA), Tara Labs (USA) and ZenSati Aps (Denmark). I need to make a statement before I place my comments: I am a very long time Stereophile reader and subscriber (over 2.5 decades) and since I started reading it, I never lost a single issue. This means that I value and appreciate the works of all editors in it and I use them as a valuable and very useful tool to implement my audiophile hobby works through all these years.
And I thank you for it.
After this statement, I feel that that I can go ahead with my comments. In page 35 of this issue, Mr. Fremer says:
“Designer Felix Avalos told me, at the 2011 Consumer Electronics Show, that his pricey Armonico line of Fono Acustica cables, hand made in Andalucía, Spain, uses a proprietary alloy of precious metals, whose formulation was based on listening tests (??? – my own question marks), as well as Teflon and air dielectrics and premium Oyiade connectors. (Fono Acustica advertises on my website). The wires are terminated using a solder (underlining is mine, again) that's made of an alloy of almost 100% silver (!!! - ??? – again, exclamation and questions marks are mine) and it is very difficult to work with. Each cable requires approximately 20 hours of construction and burn-in time, according to the company's web site (it is true that in company’s web site they claim that they use a solder alloy, approaching 100% silver content), but how this time is apportioned is not specified….”
I have no reason and perhaps not even the right to disagree with Mr. Fremer’s survey conclusions. Nor can I criticize him for transferring in his survey text what the company’s man told him, which is also reported in their web site. However, what I feel that I have the right to criticize is the thoughtless (perhaps, misguided) transfer of the above. Mr. Fremer is a well known reviewer, editor, writer and scientist. In his writing, he has always to consider scientific and technological data. Allow me to mention a few: Silver is a semi-precious metal, therefore expensive, and well known for its excellent conductivity properties, against which other metals are compared. In some cases, where cost is no object, it can be preferred and used, even if the performance superiority it offers is not directly proportional to the final cost of the product. This is known, understandable and perhaps accepted, too. What is not understandable is how someone can claim that soldering can be done with an alloy of almost 100% silver.
Metallurgy and technology of metal joining uses three main methods: Welding, Brazing and Soldering (there are other methods, too, like casting, riveting etc., but these are out of our concern). Welding requires the joining metal parts to melt and participate to the joining process. To do it, high temperatures are required, usually achieved with an electric (voltaic) arc or the use of an oxygen/acetylene flame. Brazing also requires high temperatures, but the joining parts do not melt. They are heated below their critical point and the joining material is melted, to achieve the joining. By American Welding Society definition, brazing is a welding process in which the filler metal has a meltingpoint higher than 800 deg. F (425 deg. C), but lower than that of the metal of metals being joined, and in which thefiller metal is drawn into the joint by capillary attraction. Brazing method also requires a flame to be done. Soldering is generally considered as a “cold” method. It requires the melting of the joining material only (as in Brazing) but the joining parts are not heated too much and anyway heating is done much below the critical point. It is generally similar to Brazing, except that the filler metals used, melt attemperatures below 427 deg. C (800 deg. F). Generally speaking, flame or arc are not used in Soldering.
Silver is not a metal that can be melted at low temperatures, like lead, zinc or tin. Its melting point is about 961 to 962 deg. C (or 1762-1763 deg. F). Even if it is used in other brazing alloys, where percentages vary from 45% to almost 60%, the melting temperatures are not lower than 870-880 deg. C (1598-1616 deg. F). In soldering alloys, silver content has to be kept at low percentages, with low-temp melting metals like tin and/or zinc being at much higher percentages, to allow low melting temperatures. An almost 100% silver alloy WILL NOT melt with soldering “cold” process. And even if special methods are used, the high melting temperature of the alloy will destroy any synthetic insulating material, used for the fabrication of a cable.
A small comment on the first sentence only: How can a cable factory, especially an AUDIO CABLE factory to conduct listening tests, not on cables, but on alloys? And from them, to result in the final formulation of the alloy, that’s going to be used for the fabrication of a cable? I cannot even think that a such a factory has a production line from “A” to “Z”, meaning that it can produce its own alloys, test them and then differentiate them accordingly, to end up at the final product, which shall be used for cable fabrication.
I hope that my letter is published, but most of all, I hope to get a comment/reply from Mr. Fremer. Thank you for having the time to read it.
Panagiotis Melas
Kallithea-Greece
Β. Η απάντηση στις 1-6-11
Dear Mr. Melas:
First of all I do not claim in any way to be a "scientist." Far from it. I do try to understand as best as I can the technical claims and issues behind the products I review.
I am always happy to allow manufacturers to hang themselves using their own words.
I understand your problem with the "almost 100% silver" solder claim and perhaps I should have said something about that claim or questioned the manufacturer.
However, I am not sure I understand your "alloy" comments.
Mr. Avalos claims he had wire produced using various combinations of metals (alloys) and listened to those cables. He did not claim to listen to "alloys" independent of their use in cables!
Sincerely,
Michael (not a 'scientist') Fremer
senior contributing editor
Γ. Η δική μου ανταπάντηση στις 6-6-11
Dear Mr. Fremer,
Thank you for taking time to read my email and to send me a reply. I really appreciate it. It took me a few days to see your message, because I was away from home for a while.
I did not mean to offend you, by calling you a “scientist”. In my language (Greek), the word Episteme (pronounced: E-PI-STΙ-MI) stands for the English word “Science”. It is produced from the words: “EPI” and “ISTEME” (pronounced respectively: E-PΙ; and Ι-STI –MI). “EPI” means “over” or “above” and “ISTEME” means ”stand”. So, the scientist is the person who “stands above” his (or her) field of knowledge, in other words the person who fully acquires this field. In Wikipedia, in the link for “Science”, the following are noted in the text:
The word "science" is from Old French, and in turn from Latin scientia,which was one of several words for "knowledge" in that language. In philosophical contexts, scientia and "science" were used to translate the Greek word epistemē, which had acquired a specific definition in Greek philosophy, especially Aristotle, as a type of reliable knowledge which is built up logically from strong premises, and can be communicated and taught.
The link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science
In its broader meaning, the term “Science” initially meant the organized body of the established and documented knowledge. In other words: a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the world (or any subject, I would say) , as noted in the above link of Wikipedia. Therefore, why an expert like you (and others, perhaps in the field) not to be considered a scientist? ( I could continue supporting my thesis on this matter, claiming, for example, that today in modern universities, experts in any field are usually called to teach their knowledge and expertise to the students, as in my profession, but I’ll let it go). Anyway, if you would like to disclaim this, I have no objection. For me, however, you remain one of my favorite reviewers.
As far as the silver alloy, it would be interesting to hear something from the company. If not at this time, I hope there will be an opportunity in the future. My comments for the other alloys were as much simplified as possible, to show that it is physically impossible to use soldering on an almost 100% silver alloy. I explained very roughly and in simplicity the various welding and brazing methods (metal joining), to indicate that silver, either as the base material or the filler, needs high temperature to be used (the brazing method), making it impossible to work on cables.
The matter for the listening tests on various alloys in cables, is fully understood, after your clarification. Thanks.
Very truly yours
Panagiotis Melas
Marine Superintendent Engineer
and Technical Advisor (retired)
Kallithea - Greece
Δ. Η δευτερολογία του, απάντηση στο παραπάνω μήνυμα, στις 7-6-11
Thank you so much for that extensive and interesting definition! I received this response from the manufacturer:
Well it was only a matter of time before some one questions my statement of “An almost 100% silver alloy. We have already received a couple of emails from people who want to know our secret process, and in my experience this type of people don’t really care about sound quality/music which is the only reason why Fono Acustica is creating products that are for the true music lover. People can debate whether they like or dislike how our products sound BUT no one can deny that they make a difference. This type of emails is the same to me like when people argue that cables don’t make a difference.
Whilst I agree with most of his comments, in order to explain our process I will have to reveal our secret which for obvious reasons Fono Acustica is not prepare to do.
If you recall, I mentioned to you in Vegas that this process is difficult to work with which is part of the reason why our cables cost what they cost.
“And even if special methods are used, the high melting temperature of the alloy will destroy any synthetic insulating material, used for the fabrication of a cable."
Not when is done right, we use Teflon on our ICs and at the beginning we used on our speaker cables as well. We are no longer using Teflon on our speaker cables, we have found that our speaker cables sound better without Teflon or any other insulation on the wire itself. We insert our precious metal wire alloy on a very high temperature resistance silicon tube (custom made tolerance).
The Jewellery industry is been using silver soldering for many years, Fono Acustica is just making it work for high end audio cables.
(Ακολουθεί πίνακας, που περιέχει διάφορα κράμματα ασημιού, που χρησιμοποιούνται στην κοσμηματοτεχνία, εκ των οποίων, αυτό με τη μεγαλύτερη περιεκτικότητα σε ασήμι είναι το L-Ag 75 και λιώνει στους 770 β. Κ, ενώ αυτό με τη μικρότερη περιεκτικότητα σε ασήμι είναι το L-Ag 55, που λιώνει στου 650 β. Κ)
Ε. Η δική μου δευτερολογία (ή τριτολογία), σήμερα 7-6-11
Τίτλος: Still in pursuit of truth
Dear Mr. Fremer,
Thanks a lot for spending your time to respond to my second message. I must also thank you for making my previous message comments known to Fono Acustica, thus allowing Mr. Avalon to provide an explanation for them.
To quote his words: “….We have already received a couple of emails from people who want to know our secret process, and in my experiencethis type of people don’t really care about sound quality/music, which is the only reason why Fono Acustica is creating products that are for the music lover…”
Well, isn’t this a kind-of arbitrary statement? How in the world, Mr. Avalon knows who cares or doesn’t care about music and the quality of its reproduction? Needless to say of course, that there are no “secrets” in metallurgy and the technology around it. His own words contradict the meanings in his statement. Let me explain:
“Not when is done right, we use Teflon on our ICs…..We insert our precious wire alloy on a very high temperature resistance silicon tube (custom made tolerance)”
Well, are they using Teflon or not? If they are, where this “very high temperature resistance silicon tube” gets in? It would be either a Teflon tube or that “silicon tube”, not both! I am not sure about the “Very High Temperature Resistance” of any silicon tube, but I can accept it. However, it seems that Teflon is finally used (it is clearly stated in company’s web site), as the insulating material. And if Teflon is used – which has extremely fine dielectric properties, therefore is one of the best, if not the best insulation – then we have to go back to my previous assertion that high temperatures would destroy any synthetic insulation material.
As we all know, Teflon, even in its best industrial composition, the DuPont Teflon AF amorphous fluoropolymer resin, or the Teflon PFA, retains its thermal properties at no more than 360 deg C. Actually, this is the upper physical limit. In fact, the maximum working temperature with Teflon AF is 260 deg. C. Actually, Teflon AF starts decomposing at 360 deg C. and it is completely decomposed at 450 deg. C. The following are useful links, to obtain such kind of information:
http://www.epm.com/ptfe_specs.htm
http://www2.dupont.com/Teflon_Industrial/en_US/assets/downloads/h75334.pdf
http://www.lenntech.com/teflon.htm
Given all above, I really can’t see any method of “soldering” for an “almost 100% silver alloy”. Unless of course, a high quality “silver” solder is used, even with a 10% silver in it (really very difficult to work with). It’s not bad for Fono Acustica to admit this, as a part of their interconnects fabrication. It would neither destroy their reputation, nor the alleged performance of their cables.
One last comment, related to above and the quoted table:
In this table, the word “solder” in wrongly used. This word may be commonly used between jewellers, but it does not reflect the technically correct method. Especially, if someone checks the various “soldering” alloys in that table and the related working temperatures, he (or she) will understand that “soldering” cannot be applied, only brazing can (please, see my first message, where I explain the difference between soldering and brazing, I already gave some silver alloy examples, used for silver brazing).
Brazing requires the presence of a high-temperature flame, to melt the filler material, period.
Cable manufacturing and flame are two factors that cannot coincide.
Thank you for your great work, Mr. Fremer, on Stereophile. And thank you for all your great work in the past, no matter which magazine this was published. I have kept it in my library all previous issues of Stereophile and TAS, with your reviews and articles, although my wife wishes to get rid of them (it’s true that we have a space limitation).
Very Truly Yours
Panagiotis Melas
Greece
Με λίγα λόγια, εάν σας κούρασα και αν κάποιοι έχουν δυσκολία στα Αγγλικά (πολύ λογικό, άλλωστε), τα μηνύματα που ανταλλάξαμε και που ίσως συνεχίσουμε να ανταλλάσσουμε περιέχουν τα εξής:
Το αρχικό δικό μου ρωτάει το περιοδικό (και εμμέσως τον συντάκτη, τον οποίο μέσα σε όλα τα άλλα, αποκάλεσα και επιστήμονα) πώς γίνεται να δέχεται άκριτα όσα του λέει ένας κατασκευαστής, χωρίς να τα φιλτράρει κάποια δεδομένα, και κυρίως αυτό της κατασκευής καλωδίων interconnects, όπου εφαρμόζονται μεθοδοι "ψυχρής" συγκόλλησης (soldering) βυσμάτων (και ίσως των υπολοίπων μερών του καλωδίου) με συγκολλητικό υλικό κάποιο κράμμα με περιεκτικότητα σε ασήμι σχεδόν 100%. Του έβαλα, βέβαια κι άλλο ερωτηματικό, σχετικά με το κατά πόσον ο κατασκευαστής μπορεί να επιλέγει κράμματα με την "ακουστική" μέθοδο.
Στην απάντησή του, μου είπε ότι θα έπρεπε όντως να φιλτράρει την πληροφορία και να έχει ρωτήσει τον κατασκευαστή για τις μεθόδους συγκόλλησης με συγκολλητικό υλικό τέτοιου είδους, απαρνήθηκε τον τίτλο του "επιστήμονα" και μου έδωσε μια αληθοφανή (κατά πόσον είναι αληθινή ή όχι δεν με απασχολεί) εξήγηση σχετικά με την "ακουστική" επιλογή των κραμμάτων για το βασικό υλικό των καλωδίων.
Στη ανταπάντησή μου, του εξήγησα την έννοια της ΕΠΙΣΤΗΜΗΣ και του Επιστήμονα και επέμεινα ότι "ψυχρή" κόλληση (soldering, σε αντιδιαστολή με τις άλλου είδους "θερμές" συγκολλήσεις, όπως η ηλεκτροσυγκόλληση και η οξυγονοκόλληση - welding & brazing) δεν είναι δυνατόν να εφαρμοστεί με συγκολλητικό υλικό το σχεδόν καθαρό ασήμι, για τούτο - είπα - καλό είναι να έχουμε και την άποψη του κατασκευαστή.
Στη δευτερολογία του, μου έστειλε την απάντηση του κατασκευαστή, ο οποίος, ούτε λίγο ούτε πολύ, ισχυρίστηκε ότι τέτοιου είδους μηνύματα προέρχονται από ανθρώπους που δεν ενδαιφέρονται γαι τη μουσική και την ποιότητα αναπαραγωγής της, αλλά σκοπεύουν μόνο να κάνουν κακή κριτική (κάτι τέτοιο υπονοεί, γενικά). Επίσης λέει - ο κατασκευαστής - ότι είναι αναγκασμένος να αποκαλύψει την "κρυφή" μέθοδο κατασκευής και συγκόλλησης, ισχυριζόμενος ότι για μονωτικό χρησιμοποιούν Teflon, που - όπως λέει - δεν αλλοιώνεται από τις υψηλές θερμοκρασίες συγκόλλησης ενώ παραθέτει ένα πίνακα, όπου το ασήμι και τα κράμματά του χρησιμοποιούνται στην κατασκευή κοσμημάτων, με παρόμοιες μεθόδους (μας φώτισε!!).
Τέλος, στη δική μου σημερινή δευτερολογία (ή τριτολογία), επανέρχομαι και εξηγώ στον συντάκτη ότι τα όσα ισχυρίζεται ο κύριος της Fono Acustica, δεν είναι σωστά (θα έπρεπε να του έλεγα ότι δεν είναι σοβαρά, βέβαια), τόσο διότι η συγκόλληση με τέτοιου είδους κράμματα, ακόμα κι αυτά που παραθέτει στον πίνακα, απαιτούν πολύ υψηλές θερμοκρασίες, άρα φλόγα (και όχι κολλητήρι) και αφ' ετέρου ακόμα και το Teflon, στην καλύτερή του βιομηχανική μορφή (Teflon AF), λιώνει στους 260 β. Κ και κυριολεκτικά αποσυντίθεται στους 360 βαθμούς. Ενώ αυτού του είδους τα συγκολλητικά υλικά απαιτούν θερμοκρασίες μίνιμουμ 670-680 β. Κ.
Αναμένω με περιέργεια την απάντησή του.
(Ελπίζω να μην σας κούρασα, αλλά ούτε κι εγώ περίμενα ότι θα έχουμε τέτοιας έκτασης ανταλλαγή μηνυμάτων. Ένα καλό μάθημα για όλους μας, ώστε να φιλτράρουμε τί μας τσαμπονάνε οι διάφοροι σωτήρες του συστήματός μας - φονιάδες της τσέπης μας).
Καλό βράδυ.
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