να παρω πικάπ?

[PeTTrun]

Από πείρα να πω την αλήθεια δεν έχω!!
Από Technics SL-1210MkII έχω!!
Η άποψη μου είναι πως άμα θέλεις να ακούσεις Disco-Pop-κλπ που απ'ότι κατάλαβα μίλησε αρχικά οτι έχει ο φίλος το ΜκΙΙ είναι ΘΕΟΣ!!!
Θα το χαρεί θα το παίξει ώρες ατελείωτες και δεν θα μετανοιώσει ούτε για ένα σεντς από τα λεφτά που θα δώσει για αυτό.
Τώρα μπορεί να υπάρχουν και καλύτερα πλατό από το ΜκΙΙ αλλά δεν θέλω να μάθω να ακούω άλλου είδους μουσική από αυτό που μου αρέσει μόνο και μόνο για να δικαιολογήσω τα κακόμοιρα τα λεφτά μου για ένα πλατώ ΚΟΣΜΗΜΑ (και ηχητικά)που με έπεισαν να αγοράσω!!!
Αν κατάλαβα λάθος συγχωρέστε με!!

 

[thanasis k.]

Πρωτον σκετος Θανασης, μια παρεα ειμαστε και η διαφωνια δεν ειναι κακο. Απλα ειναι καποια πραγματα που δεν μπορουν να αμφισβητηθουν και δεν μιλαω για τον τομεα της εμφανισης.
Οπως π.χ ενα απο αυτο που προανεφερα. Το καλυτερο πηγαδι οπου υπαρχει επαφη υλικων, εστω και αν χρειαζεται μια σταγονα λαδι καθε εκατο χρονια, υποκειται στην φθορα της τριβης και δεν μπορει σε καμμια περιπτωση να συγκριθει με το αιωρουμενο πλατω του μαγνητικου πηγαδιου με το κανενα σημειο επαφης, οπως και να το κανουμε ειναι θεμα φυσικης, τωρα ο καθενας αποφασιζει ποσα χρημματα θα δωσει για ενα πλατω και ειναι δικαιωμα του και απολυτα σεβαστο, αλλα δηστυχως υπαρχουν λογοι, αν και υπερτιμημενοι που οι σανιδες και τα πλαστικα δεν πληρωνονται με το κιλο και δεν ειναι θεμα εμφανισης μονον ουτε νεοπλουτισμου.

 

[caravelle]

Eντάξει Θανάση ! :605Κατάλαβα ότι απευθύνεσαι και σε μένα και έτσι απαντώ).

Επί της ουσίας τώρα!

α') Μία σταγόνα λάδι κάθε 10 χρόνια χρειάζεται το ΜΚ Ι που έχει -70 db rumble! Για το ΜΚ ΙΙ με -78 db rumble δεν ξέρω!
β΄) Το MK II διαβάζω ότι έχει μαγνητικό πηγάδι ( Δεν ξέρω για να είμαι ειλικρινής!
γ') Rumble & wow & flutter για το δικό σου;
δ') Η φωτογραφία που έβαλες για το ΜΚ ΙΙ το αδικεί κατάφωρα! Επειδή εγώ από ώρα παιδεύομαι και δεν τα καταφέρνω, εσύ που είσαι άνετος στον χειρισμό, βάλε κάποια αστραφτερή όπως του αξίζει! (Πιστεύω να μην διαφωνείς!).
ε') Πως να βάλω ένα Αγγλικό κείμενο που είναι η ΠΛΗΡΗΣ ΔΙΚΑΙΩΣΗ ΤΟΥ κ. ΚΟΓΙΑ; Το photobucket δεν δέχεται κείμενα για μεταφόρτωση!

 

[thanasis k.]

Φιλε PeTTrun κανεις δεν μπορει να σε κατηγορησει αν σε καποια συγκεκριμενα ηδη μουσικης αναπαραγονται καλα απο το αναλογικο σου μεσο. Αλλα αυτο που λες ηδη δειχνει την αδυναμια του, γιατι ενα σωστο μεσο αναπαραγωγης αποδιδει το ιδιο σε ολα τα μουσικα ηδη.
Ειναι περιπου σαν να λεμε, οτι κανεις δεν μπορει να σε πεισει να αγορασεις τα ηχεια που εχεις στο αβαταρ σου γιατι τα δικα σου παιζουν μια χαρα την μουσικη που ακους. Αυτο δεν σημαινει οτι τα ηχεια του αβαταρ σου ειναι αχρηστα και αν ναι γιατι τα εχεις εκει;

 

[thanasis k.]

φιλε caravelle, αυτο που θελω να πω ειναι οτι το καλυτερο πλατω με πηγαδι τριβης δεν μπορει να συγκριθει με ενα που δεν εχει σημειο επαφης και αυτη η εξελιξη της τεχνολογιας πληρωνεται με ενα μερος των επιπλεον χρηματων. Το ιδιο ισχυει με τα εξωτερικα μοτερ σε σχεση με τα ενσωματωμενα κ.λπ.

 

[caravelle]

φιλε caravelle, αυτο που θελω να πω ειναι οτι το καλυτερο πλατω με πηγαδι τριβης δεν μπορει να συγκριθει με ενα που δεν εχει σημειο επαφης και αυτη η εξελιξη της τεχνολογιας πληρωνεται με ενα μερος των επιπλεον χρηματων. Το ιδιο ισχυει με τα εξωτερικα μοτερ σε σχεση με τα ενσωματωμενα κ.λπ.

Κατ΄αρχήν καμμία αντίρρηση, αν και θα ήθελα να το δω αυτό σε σχέση και με την τιμή αγοράς! Ωστόσο η προδιαγραφή ανακοινώνεται από τον κατασκευαστή; Τι rumble και τι wow & flutter έχει; Ποιά ακρίβεια ταχύτητας;

Και ρωτάω γιατί το ΜΚ IV, που είναι το τρέχον μοντέλλο, έχει φθάσει σε επίπεδα τρομερά και αυτό με ελάχιστο κόστος για τον αγοραστή! Μόνο η MATSUSHITA με το budget που διέθετε τότε που το βινύλιο ήταν το κύριο μέσο, θα μπορούσε να αναπτύξει την πανάκριβη τεχνολογία του direct drive και να την προσφέρει στην συνέχεια σε τέτοια ποιότητα και τόσο φθηνά!

 

[thanasis k.]

εν μερει εχεις σε καποια θεματα δικιο. Αλλα ειναι καποια πραγματα που δυστηχως δεν μπορουν να αμφισβητηθουν. Αν μιλαμε για σχεση τιμης προς αποδοση, εδω σηκωνει πολυ συζητηση και ακρη δεν θα βγει γιατι εγω πιστευω οτι υπαρχουν πολλα καλυτερα μηχανηματα και με μικροτερο κοστος απο το 1200, αλλα αυτο ειναι προσωπικη αποψη και δεχεται αμφισβητηση. Αλλα ειναι καποια γεγονοτα που δεν μπορουν να αγνοηθουν η να αμφισβητηθουν. Ετσι ενα πλατω με τεχνολογια 30 ετων παλια δεν μπορει να συγκριθει με την συχρονη οσο και αν προσπαθησουμε.
Τωρα ποσο μαλλον αν μιλαμε και για συγκριση με μηχανηματα αλλου κοστους ε ξεφευγει λιγο.

Τι να συγκρινουμε, το μοτερ του 1200 με τα τρια μοτερτης κλιαροντιο;

τα πηγαδια τους;

η τους βραχιονες - για τα πλατω και τις βασεις δεν το συζηταμε, φαινονται στις φωτογραφιες η κατασκευη τους

 

[caravelle]

Eντυπωσιακά όλα αυτά αλλά εγώ θα επιμείνω!

Τι rumble, τι wow & flutter, τι ακρίβεια ταχύτητας ανακοινώνει η clear audio?

Γιατί ακριβώς εδώ είναι το θέμα! Είναι καλύτερο, πόσο καλύτερο, με τι κόστος; Και εαν όχι τι μεγαλοφυές αυτό το σχέδιο τω προ 30 χρόνων, (40 για την ακρίβεια), που για να το ξεπεράσουν ιδρώνουν, χρησιμοποιόντας ... δυσανάλογη βία, με τερατώδεις σε όγκο κατασκευές, που δέχομαι ότι για κάποιους μπορεί να φαντάζουν ωραίες, και πανάκριβα υλικά!

 

[thanasis k.]

και μιλαω για το κλιαροντιο επειδη το κατεχω, υπαρχουν και αλλα εξαιρετα δειγματα που ενσωματωνουν την δικη τους τεχνολογια, οπως το ορακλ ντελφι

 

[caravelle]

Κάποια απάντηση στα ερωτήματα;

 

[thanasis k.]

Eντυπωσιακά όλα αυτά αλλά εγώ θα επιμείνω!

Τι rumble, τι wow & flutter, τι ακρίβεια ταχύτητας ανακοινώνει η clear audio?

Γιατί ακριβώς εδώ είναι το θέμα! Είναι καλύτερο, πόσο καλύτερο με τι κόστος; Και εαν όχι τι μεγαλοφυές αυτό το σχέδιο τω προ 30 χρόνων, (40 για την ακρίβεια), που για να το ξεπεράσουν ιδρώνουν, χρησιμοποιόντας ... δυσανάλογη βία, με τερατώδεις σε όγκο κατασκευές, που δέχομαι ότι για κάποιους μπορεί να φαντάζουν ωραίες, και πανάκριβα υλικά!

μην πεφτεις στην παγιδα των ψευτομετρησεων.
Θυμασαι τα φορητα με τα αυτοκολλητα 2000 βατ επανω;.
Η και με πιο χαι ενδ ορους τα πλαστικα ηχειακια των 2000 ευρω που φτανουν τα 100.000 χερτζ, αποδιδουν καλυτερα απο τα π.χ. Μαρτιν λογκαν των 20.000 κυκλων;
Δυστηχως μονο αμα ακουσεις ενα καλα στημενο αναλογικο μπορεις να καταλαβεις την διαφορα και αυτη ακουγεται πανευκολα, πραγμα που δεν εχω παρατηρησει να συμβαινει τοσο πολυ με ψηφιακες πηγες.

 

[thanasis k.]

ειναι σαν να μου λες οτι το λαντα τζιπ παραγεται απο το 70 και επειδη το πηραν πολλοι και σε παει εσενα καλα ειναι καλυτερο απο το τζιπ της Πορσε. Μην συγκρινεις ανομοια πραγματα, δεν συγκρινεται ουτε με το σουζουκακι.

 

[caravelle]

Oι μετρήσεις που δίνει η TECHNICS είναι ψεύτικες;

Turntable Type
FG Servo Quartz Direct Drive

Wow and Flutter
0.01%WRMS,

+/- 0.035% peak

Rumble
-78dB DIN B

Speeds
33/45 RPM

Tonearm Shape
Universal S-Shaped

Tonearm Offset Angle
22°

Tonearm Effective Mass 12g
Tonearm Bearings Polished to a finish of +/-0.5 microns
Extremely low friction 0.007 grams
Anti Skate
0-3g

Tracking Accuracy 0° 3' inner groove (12" record)
2° 32' outer groove (12" record)
Standard Cable Capacitance 100pF including tone-arm cable
8pF per 10cm approx
Dimensions (W x H x D)
453 x 162 x 360 mm

Weight 12 Kg
Technics SL series turntables are still hand built in Japan and have become legendary with over 3 million sets being produced. All SL models feature the undisputedly accurate, reliable and durable Quartz Direct Drive Motor, with extremely high precision arm, precision Aluminium Diecast cabinet and heavy rubber base for vibration damping and total stability.

 

[thanasis k.]

αν θες κατι αξιολογο απο εκεινη την εποχη παρε το Linn Sondek LP12

 

[caravelle]

Για δες: (1)

VINYL HEAVEN and The Technics SL-1200 MK2

Now is the time. Unpack your old LPs and singles. Clean up your vinyl. Spin those discs and have some fun....

In this section you can find the way to real vinyl nirvana......





Get Out Your Vinyl!

There is a certain magic about playing records that is absent from CD's and certainly from those highly compressed and invisible MP3 and AAC files. Part of that magic is the unique ritual of removing a treasured LP or 7 inch single from its sleeve, carefully placing it onto the turntable platter, cleaning the dust off and then gently moving a precision engineered pick-up arm over the lead-in groove and carefully lowering the delicate stylus onto the playing surface of the record, then sitting back to enjoy the mellifluous sound that only vinyl reproduction can provide.

Bear in mind, however, that to get the fullest enjoyment you do need a good turntable, and not all turntables are born equal - in fact I doubt that there are many that are quite as capable and enjoyable as the Technics SL-1200 Mk2.

(Oh, before we carry on here. If you are simply looking to buy a turntable that will enable you to copy your records onto your computer in the form of mp3 files then don't, whatever you do, be tempted to buy one of those crummy plasticky 'USB' style (or similar) turntable packages that you'll see advertised in various magazines, newspapers, electronics shops and gadget websites. These turntables are absolutely useless - more like lathes than precision audio equipment. They are cheaply made have the most rudimentary spring loaded arms that track at FAR too high a weight and not only sound absolutely horrible, but will also damage your records. Be Warned! AVOID! - If £120 really is all you want to spend, then buy a Project Debut III which at least has a reasonable arm and decent cartridge. However I would recommend that you read on and find out that the ONLY turntable that you must buy is the Technics SL-1200 MkII however. Sermon over).

THE Turntable




The Technics SL-1210 Mk 2 (SL-1200 MK 2 PK in N. America)



If you have arrived at this page there is a good chance that you are looking for a turntable to play your precious collection of vinyl records. There is also a very good chance that you are dissatisfied with your current turntable, be it a Dual, Project, Rega or whatever, and are looking for the ultimate turntable upgrade for not too much money.

It is unfortunate that many people believe that vinyl records a greatly inferior to CD’s – full stop. This is not really the case. I think that one of the main reasons for the misconception is that the record decks that are supplied with the typical all in one ‘stack’ or midi system are horribly substandard and will produce extremely poor audio quality. Sadly there are also mini, midi and even full size turntables that are being sold separately for about £100 or less that will produce equally poor sound - such turntables may also have well known manufacturer names on their badges, but appear to be cheaply made 're-badged' products.

However with a turntable of suitably high quality and a vinyl record that is in good condition and clean (see cleaning), the sound quality obtainable from an LP can be just as enjoyable as from a CD, indeed there are some people who would argue that the sound from vinyl is even more enjoyable than from CD! But you do have to use a good turntable.

So, if you are considering buying a new turntable for sensible money (i.e under £300-600) make sure that you put the Technics SL-1200 MkII at the very top of your short-list of one!

Even if you are only considering spending £200 - £300 on a turntable I really would have to say, after hearing the SL-1200 MK2, don't waste your money. Save up another £100 or so and consider the Technics SL-1200 Mk2 – it offers unbeatable sound for pound value.

If you want to know what all the fuss is about, then read on.



Real Stereo

MY VINYL EPIPHANY
(Warning .... it does take a little while to get there. Yawn.)

In my younger days my first turntable was one made by Micro Seiki, it was a semi-automatic belt drive model. Although solidly built it didn't have the greatest sound quality; the belt drive system suffered from some noticeable pitch instability and the bearing was rather noisy, so the signal to noise ratio was rather compromised, manifesting as rumble. Additionally it suffered a certain degree of mis-tracking distortion that I could never quite eliminate no matter how I arranged the cartridge in the arm. This became rather irritating at times. The cartridge was quite good, however, being an Ortofon VMS20EII which had an even handed sound and was really quite detailed and revealing - mainly revealing the limitations of the turntable I fear.

Some years later, around 1990, I decided to upgrade. From reading the hi-fi press at that time, it seemed that there was only one budget turntable to buy - a Rega Planar (in fact, for some unfathomable reason the Rega turntable (and its many derivatives) is still recommended by people who really should know better, but I digress). Most so called hi-fi 'experts' seemed to suggest that a belt-drive turntable was the best, if not the only drive method worth considering and so I (along with so many other 'green' and impressionable hi-fi enthusiasts) was convinced (conned) by the magazine reports and hi-fi shop sales-people and decided that I must have this type of turntable. I listened to an example in a hi-fi shop, but I have to admit that while its was certainly better than the budget Micro Seiki, it did not seem to offer the vast improvement that I was expecting. What is true is that I did immediately notice that the arm/cartridge did track much better.

I then listened to a Systemdek turntable which was vastly superior, but the particular turntable, arm, cartridge combination was ridiculously expensive as I remember. CD's were, of course, around at this time and offered the stability of sound, dynamism and lack of distortion that I was seeking from my collection of records. I continued my search.

After hearing the Rega I just did not believe that it was as good as the magazine reviewers claimed, and certainly it did not seem worth the asking price. Sure, the arm was a very nice piece of metal, but a the rest of the package was basically a bit of wood with a pretty basic motor fixed to it. I trusted my own ears on this matter, as anyone auditioning a turntable or a pair of loudspeakers (or any other component) really should. My suspicions were later confirmed by reading other owners' experiences with this turntable which cited: speed drift, pitch instability and noticeable motor noise and rumble.

The manufacturer apparently refuted these complaints, but strangely some time later these non-existent faults would be 'fixed' if the owners bought an different (quieter?) motor that would be fixed to the wood using glue pads - real high tech stuff eh?

I was saddened, particularly as I like to buy British if possible.

In the end, later in 1990, and after more auditions, I settled for a Rotel RP-855 turntable. It was relatively inexpensive, but it did offer an appreciable upgrade over my existing deck. The Rotel RP-855 is still a belt drive affair ( I had been convinced that I needed a belt drive turntable, remember), just like the Micro Seiki, Rega and Systemdek. However the Rotel, unlike some other turntables, uses a DC servo motor which has proved to be very accurate and stable and really is quite entertaining to listen to. Apparently a DC Servo systems utilise a sensitive regulator to monitor the voltage to the motor which improves the long term speed drift and static stylus drag susceptibility. Being a DC motor, the Rotel also has the extremely useful feature of being able to adjust the rotational speed so that it would spin accurately at 33 and 45 rpm, a feature that seems impossible to implement on turntables that use AC synchronous motors - the reason why Rega and Project turntables always seem to rotate several percent faster than they should!

My suspicion about the Regas and Projects is this: Playing music just a few percent faster than it should be makes it sound more energetic - more exciting if you will. This 'excitement effect' may be why such turntables get erroneously good reviews.

That's just my own little suspicion.

The arm is nothing particularly fancy on the RP-855, but has always worked reasonably well, although there is still some noticeable end of side tracking distortion, but the tonality pleasant and accurate, the drive system it is remarkably quiet and the output detailed and very pleasingly musical. Given its strengths, I felt that the Rotel RP-855 was a fair compromise for its reasonable price at the time, though not perfect of course, but offering much better value for money compared to that alternative turntable. The Rotel is certainly very well built and has also proved to be completely reliable during its 17 years of use. However (scratches and static aside) my LP's still did not sound technically as good as most of my CD's, of course, though I tended to prefer vinyl's more inviting feel. I resolved that LP's just can never match the technical standards of Compact Disc and that advertising for the digital format was indeed correct.....

But there again.........maybe just I hadn't found the Holy Grail - yet?

In 2000, after ten years of owning the Rotel RP-855 I thought that it might be time to look for something better with which to spin my collection of vinyl. The Rotel is not at all bad, but I just knew that there was room for improvement - as some school teachers may say. So, I popped into a hi-fi shop and they assured me that the new belt drive turntables that they had on display were the absolute 'bees knees' and went on to demonstrate a couple. Hmmm, the expensive one was not too bad, but it was very expensive indeed at way over £600 or more and really did not offer an appreciable improvement, as far as I could hear. The cheaper one offered no improvement at all over the Rotel , in fact I was not entirely convinced that it was even as musical as the Rotel, it certainly wasn't as well engineered or solid in its construction. I was once again disappointed with what I heard.

I kept the RP-855 - Rotel hadn't done a bad job I mused.

Had I only known, throughout this search for the perfect record player, how misinformed I had been by misguided the hi-fi press, retailers and hi-fi enthusiasts, then I would have disregarded the idea that the only type of turntable to consider is one with a belt drive from the very beginning.


The Holy Grail - found at long last

In 2007 I was looking again, and did some much more thorough research which proved to me that the belt drive system is actually a compromised system that may never be able to provide the stability and lack of unwanted resonances that is needed for truly accurate and, moreover, enjoyable sound. Looking back on the subject now it seems obvious that noisy motors and bearings mounted on bits of MDF, in the typical built down to a price turntable, is surely going to be compromised on an engineering level by speed errors & fluctuations, noise and unwanted resonances and vibrations. The sound quality must suffer.

So let's talk about all those nuts who bury their head in the sand - and maybe that's why they cannot hear how bad some turntables actually are: I have read reviews from proud Rega owners who readily admit to noticeable pitch instability and speed drift, yet go on to recommend the same obviously flawed turntable to others! They certainly seem to be absolute masters of self deception.

When engineered correctly, it appeared from my research, the only drive system capable of providing completely stable, pitch perfect and silent rotation, and therefore the ability to convey musical information accurately, is an accurately controlled Direct Drive system of the type engineered and employed by Technics in their SL-1200 series of turntables. Listening to a 1200 most certainly confirms this and it is the Technics SL-1210 MkII that I bought. The Technics is the Direct Drive stallion to many of the other belt-drive turntable donkeys and is my particular Vinyl Epiphany!

Phew!

 

[thanasis k.]

βρε παιδι μου τοχεις ακουσει; και σε συγκριση με ποιο; σε τι συστημα;

 

[caravelle]

Για δες! (2)

Quartz Lock FG Servo:

Quoting KABUSA: "This is perhaps the best drive system available today. Not only is it dead accurate and stable. But the ability to correct for both static and dynamic load friction is uncanny. This, thanks to the frequency generator servo. Very few 'tables use this technology due in part to it's complexity and also patent infringement consideration. We are intimately familiar with one design the Technics SL1200 MKII. With this system, there are simply no speed variations. You can, for instance, rub your finger on the edge of the platter and the platter will hold perfect speed. We consider this to be a world class reference turntable. The economical price is misleading Since 1,000's are sold monthly worldwide." http://www.kabusa.com/

You will find it very difficult, if not impossible, to find another turntable that has such a low rumble figure and such precise speed accuracy at anywhere near the price of the Technics SL-1200 MK2 turntable, or even at many times its cost. That is how well this turntable is engineered.

 

[thanasis k.]

Καλα ναι νταξει θα σου βγαλω και εγω αλλα 200 λινκ που το βγαλανε μαπα οπως απο κει. Οπου μας συμφερει ιντερνετ οπου οχι δεν το κυτταμε. Δεν μου ειπες σε πιο συστημα και με πιο το εχεις συγκρινει;

 

[PeTTrun]

Τα πράγματα πολλές φορές δεν είναι όπως φαίνονται.Πολλές φορές χάζεψα μια φεραρι και την έβαλα και desctopστον Η/Υ μα αυτό δεν σημαίνει τίποτα παραπάνω από θαυμασμό και Respectσε κάτι τόσο όμορφο και εξοτικό,όχι όμως απαραίτητα χρήσιμο.Ναι λοιπόν άμα ξεχιλυζαν τα ευρώ απο την τσέπη μου πιθανότατα να έπερνα μία,ή τα Grande Utopiaτου Avatar μου ή ακόμη και κάποιο πλατώ πολλών χιλιάδων ευρώ έτσι για το γαμώτο ρε αδερφέ και ας έπαιζα και ΑΒΒΑ ή Rick Astley αλλά αυτό πάλι δεν θα άλαζε την χρησιμότητά του.Πιστεύω πως οι επιλογές στον ήχο όπως και στην ζωή έχει να κάνει με τα θέλω και τις δυνατότητες του καθενός.Και ο κάθε ένας μας παίρνει αυτό που του αξίζει στο τέλος. BEWARE λοιπόν!

 

[audioailouros]

Να σας θυμισω?

http://www.avclub.gr/forum/showthread.php?t=30893

http://www.avclub.gr/forum/showthread.php?t=30809