SA-CD vs HD

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Χωρίς σχόλια!

http://www.cirlinca.com/include/stereoplay0907report-en.pdf


Και για όσους... βαριούνται να ανοίξουν το link:

THE BIT-ER TRUTH

Highresolution-Downloads promise musical enjoyment like listening directly to the mastertapes.
Are they able to replace DVD-Audio and SACD?
By Joerg Witzsch & Hans-Ulrich Fessler
"Do we still need CD and SACD?" With this deliberately provoking remark Caroline Dooley, Head
of Linn Records, presents a new, highly interesting format for HighEnd-ers: the Studio Master
Download. Music, you could not buy in such quality as a download before – taken from the original
stereo masters with up to 24bit and 96 kHz resolution – thus in best studio quality.
"Of course we do not think to stop providing CDs and SACDs", Dooley gives the all-clear, " but in
times of fast DSL-downloads you have to think with blinkers off and later on confront yourself with
reality again and provide our customers with the format best suited to their needs." That means:
mp3 is done and out as a downloadable format for enthusiasts of good sound-quality - long live
high resolution, uncompressed WMA and FLAC. Besides CD and SACD, Linn-Records now offers
a third possibility to enjoy music in perfection. How perfect? stereoplay wanted to investigate that
in detail and developed a real "masterplan" to give consideration to the provoking assumption on
top: could it be possible, that high resolution downloads are the replacement of the SACD?
Interestingly enough, for the test another high resolution format comes into play, that Linn does not
have in its portfolio: DVD-Audio
THE MASTERPLAN
If you set out to test the quality of music-downloads, you must be highly aware not to be caught by
the many "soundtraps", a computer puts in your way to perfect enjoyment of sound. Not only does
the soundcard need to be of highest quality, also the components and the operating system of a
computer are in the way of good sound-reproduction. The power supply: not developed to provide
good sound-quality, partly a real "jamming transmitter". Or widely spread "Windows": the internal
("K-") mixer is in the way, resamples signals to 48kHz much of the time, before they find their way
to the soundcard – also not really HighEnd-y. Through the line-connections, many computergenerated
residuals find their way to the amplifier. All that, you have to cut out of the way.
stereoplay will test Linn's Studio Master Downloads using two ways: first, with a computer acting
as a music-server, second, with DVD-Audio. If you use software like Minnetonka's Discwelder or
low-priced DVD-Audio Solo and burn DVD-Audio in LPCM-format from the high resolution
downloads, you avoid all software- and hardware-related issues from a computer, that could
influence sound-quality – theoretically, the music is stored on the DVD exactly as the sound
engineer provided it for download. Could it be, that the custom-made DVD-Audio beats the SACD?
The "highend-y" conversion of a normal computer into a music-server is a bit more complicated.
stereoplay chose an external soundcard from Studio-Expert RME. Its FireFace 400 is attached via
FireWire to the computer and bypasses Windows' "resampling-traps" with special ASIO-drivers.
The high resolution downloads are directly fed into the soundcard through the "Foobar
2000"-player without changes in bit-perfect quality. stereoplay deliberately avoided the use of
Windows Media Player, since it cannot make use of ASIO drivers. Furthermore, FireFace 400
provides a highly-specialized jitter-correction, that is able to virtually eliminate almost all
computer-generated Jitter.
To provide direct comparability between CD, SACD and the downloads, stereoplay did not make
use of the excellent D/A-converters of the FireFace 400, but instead only used its internal SPDIFconverter.
With this high-bit-PCM-signal the reviewers fed a multiplayer from Linn: the Unidisk
SC. It is able to play back CD, SACD and the custom-made DVD-Audio and also provides a digital
input, which accepts the high resolution digital signal (exception: 88.2 kHz signals are not accepted
over the digital input, which Linn confirmed upon request).
So all formats were making use of the same converters and electronics – comparability was
perfectly established. Last, all-dominant step in stereoplay's "masterplan": a comparison between
SACD and custom-made DVD-Audio with the best multiplayer, Steroplay knows: Linn's new
Akurate CD.
THE TEST
Already with Barb Jungr's album "Walking in the sun" – mastered with 44.1 kHz and 24 bit – the
reviewers noted for the custom-made DVD-A: "slightly darker and subdued, a little lack of
tension." Played back from the harddisc, the test-tracks sounded clearer and more open, the electric
organ's cue was clearer, fresher and more striking. Its crescendo in "Trouble in mind" sounded more
threatening.
The comparison to the SACD showed: from the harddisc, Barb Jungr's voice sounded a bit more
dull, the bass a bit more sluggish. The SACD scored with a more coherent imaging, bass was even
more distinct and outlined. Barb Jungr's voice was embedded even better within the arrangement
without losing autonomy.
Interesting phenomenon: the DVD-A sounded more rhythmical at first. That turned out to be a
fallacy quite soon: indeed the DVD-A separated the individual notes better, but only, because they
were literally punched out – they lacked the fade, the transition into the next tone, that harddisc and
SACD were able to provide.
Same result with Carol Kidd's album "Debut". Mastered with 96 kHz and 24 bit, it could
impressively prove differences between formats. The custom-made DVD-A provided more
spaciousness in the first place, but very soon, stereoplay discovered, that this was a merely artificial
3D-effect, eventually caused by small phase-shifts – the SACD showed the more realistic,
musically comprehensible three-dimensionality. Via harddisc, Carol Kidd's debut sounded more
rhythmic than via DVD-A, the pianist's witty rendition, his clever use of rhythmical and dynamic
phrasing provided good spirits to the listeners. Even more colour, more "swing" and sharper
outlines were the icing on the cake, that made SACD again become favourite of the reviewers:
"Musicality" was written on the reviewer's notepads repeatedly, when the SACD was spinning in
the UNIDISK SC. That also happened during the toughest test of the stereoplay-"masterplan":
Played back via Akurate CD, the DVD-A stepped up a gear in quality, but the SACD expanded its
advance in sound-quality even more.
Finally: what happenes with classical music? One example of the 22 tracks, that stereoplay
auditioned over hours, particularly documents that: Mozart's "Adagio in c-minor" (96 kHz / 24 bit).
Via DVD-A it seemed, as if the recording had taken place in a well-built theatre. Via harddisc, the
place turned into an opera-house, but the awe-inspiring, (tone-)colorful concert hall only was
audible via SACD. Especially during pianissimo, the musical suspense, that only the SACD was
able to provide, was merely written into the reviewer's faces.
BOTTOMLINE
High resolution downloads – be it FLAC, WMA or WAV – surely have a big stake in the future.
With a well-equipped computer and an amplifier able to process high resolution signals, it has never
been easier to play back music in best quality. Shortly, even computers and soundcards will be
redundant if you look at the hardware already supporting lossless codecs like FLAC - not to
mention the upcoming all-in-one devices.
Converting the downloads to DVD-Audio already provides absolutely top notch sound-quality, but
in comparison between formats has ended up to be the taillight. That, by the way, was not due to the
quality of the software used: both Discwelder and DVD-Audio Solo do not add or take away
anything from the original; we re-extracted the DVD-A-data before burning them to DVD, and they
proved to be 100% identical with the original ("checksum"). But why then the diffences? A
crosscheck with different DVD-writers showed minimal differences in sound-quality – stereoplay is
sure, that the differences noted by the reviewers originate between harddisc and player. In other
words: somewhere, where the DVD-writer, the used media, its reflectivity, burn-quality, laserpickup
and mechanics of the player come into play. Nevertheless, for the HiFi-enthusiast without
ambitions to build a music-server, DVD-A is an all-around recommendable entry into the highbitworld.
Clear winner of the test was the SACD – it sounded more musical, flowing, coherent and richer in
detail – even though differences to the downloads were remarkably minimal in absolute terms.
For stereoplay, that again proves, that SACD and the bitstream-format earn highest merits in soundquality.
The surplus advantage of the SACD to provide a 5.1-mix most of the times and (in case of Linn)
sell at a lower price than the download, will most likely not last long – related offers are already
available on the internet or in preparation.
But no matter what format you chose: with this evolution, mp3 is outdated in the world of HiFi and
will only remain a storage-space-saving option for the bus, a beach-chair or to go for a run.
SOFTWARE
For playback, stereoplay recommends two programs: the freeware "Foobar 2000" and J.River
Mediacenter ($40). The latter scores with an excellent user-interface and is perfectly suitable for the
use with touch-panels. Both programs support ASIO.
To create DVD-Audio you can either use Minnetonka's "Discwelder Bronze" ($99) or Cirlinca's
"DVD-Audio Solo" ($40). There are no sonic differences, "DVD-Audio Solo" gets a
recommendation from stereoplay for its easy usability and many features. WMA and FLAC can be
imported directly without previous conversion, the integrated sound recorder for example enables
conversion of a vinyl-collection to high resolution DVD-Audio.


:107:
 

costas EAR

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Απάντηση: SA-CD vs HD

και για να το κάνω ακόμα πιο σύντομο:

High resolution downloads – be it FLAC, WMA or WAV – surely have a big stake in the future.
With a well-equipped computer and an amplifier able to process high resolution signals, it has never been easier to play back music in best quality.

For playback, stereoplay recommends two programs: the freeware "Foobar 2000" and J.River Mediacenter ($40).
 

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Re: Απάντηση: SA-CD vs HD

και για να το κάνω ακόμα πιο σύντομο:
($40).

Φίλε costas EAR δεν θα έβαζα βέβαια όλο αυτό το κατεβατό για να "κρούσω ανοιχτές θύρες"!

Η κεντρική ιδέα του άρθρου, και για αυτόν τον λόγο, επειδή είναι κόντρα στα γενικώς παραδεκτά, έχει τον τίτλο: THE BIT-TER TRUTH, είναι το παρακάτω:

Clear winner of the test was the SACD – it sounded more musical, flowing, coherent and richer in
detail – even though differences to the downloads were remarkably minimal in absolute terms.


:107:
 

Costas Coyias

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...

Clear winner of the test was the SACD – it sounded more musical, flowing, coherent and richer in
detail – even though differences to the downloads were remarkably minimal in absolute terms.


:107:
Σε σχέση με τί;
 

costas EAR

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δε διαφωνώ.

αλλά αν θεωρήσουμε ότι η πηγή συμμετέχει σε ένα χ ποσοστό στο % του συνολικού αποτελέσματος, υποθέτω ότι ειναι σοφότερη επιλογή να κυνηγά κανείς το υπόλοιπο 100-χ ποσοστό (τα γνωστά περί χώρου, οδήγησης, απόκρισης, δυναμικών κλπ) και να αρκείται στο χ των φλακ, παρά να μαζεύει SACD για την όποια μικροδιαφορά και να συνεχίζει να αγνοεί την ουσία.

όμως, συμφωνώ.
 

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Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: SA-CD vs HD

Σε σχέση με τί;
Φίλε Κώστα το thread είναι: SA-CD vs HD, (έχεις κάποιο δίκηο και το SACD HD ήχος είναι), αλλά μια ματιά στο άρθρο τα εξηγεί όλα, συνεπώς και η BIT-ER TRUTH αναφέρεται σε αυτό!

Ας προσπαθήσω λίγο να το εκλαϊκεύσω: OTI και εάν κάνουμε με πολύ καλά DAC, OPAMP, BIT PERFECT κτλπ, κτλπ, έστω προς το παρόν, το SA-CD υπερέχει, ελάχιστα ίσως. αλλά εξ ορισμού, μία μικρή διαφορά για την οποία όμως... σφάζονται παλληκάρια!

Και διατί να το κρύψωμεν άλλωστε; :142:
 


costas EAR

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κι εμένα μου αρέσουν οι ξανθές.
 


Κώστας Φ.

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...OTI και εάν κάνουμε με πολύ καλά DAC, OPAMP, BIT PERFECT κτλπ, κτλπ, έστω προς το παρόν, το SA-CD υπερέχει, ελάχιστα ίσως. αλλά εξ ορισμού, μία μικρή διαφορά για την οποία όμως... σφάζονται παλληκάρια!
Εγώ μάλλον δεν είμαι παλικάρι γιατί προτιμώ την ευχρηστία και το τεράστιο δωρεάν ή μη υλικό στο οποίο μου δίνει πρόσβαση ο music server μου.
Tώρα αν δεν ήμουν σε θέση να στήσω το PC-base front-end μου σωστά, κι εγώ σε SACD θα έχωνα το χρήμα.
 

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Παντως εμενα μου αρεσε πιο πολυ το dvd audio.
Κι εμένα.

Κάνουμε club;

Θα έχει και πλάκα που δεν υπάρχουν δίσκοι για σύγκριση πια.

:116:
 


Costas Coyias

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κι εμένα μου αρέσουν οι ξανθές.
Εμένα πάλι μ' αρέσουν όλες, αλλά να βλέπονται, να μην είναι εντελώς φασόλια.
 


Costas Coyias

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Τώρα, σοβαρά μιλάς; Δίνεις βάση στην κρίση μερικών ραδικιών που λένε πως για τις όποιες ηχητικές διαφορές, φταίνε οι διαφορές του σκληρού δίσκου με το drive που παίζει δίσκους DVD-A και SACD; Μήπως εγώ δεν κατάλαβα καλά;
 

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Το ότι είναι ραδίκια από που προκύπτει;

:201: (Έτοιμος για απαντήσεις!)
 

costas EAR

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Απάντηση: Re: SA-CD vs HD

Το ότι είναι ραδίκια από που προκύπτει;
ριντ μπιτουίν δι λάινς... :135:

Και κάνε και συνολική κριτική στο όλο εγχείρημα. Περι τίνος πρόκειται δηλαδή. Και είναι και το άλλο: ποιά η αξία της άποψης του "τι μου αρέσει περισσότερο", ιδίως σε ένα ηχοσύστημα - χώρο που δεν μπορεί να χαρακτηριστεί "τέλειο"...

Και να μη προσθέσω κι άλλα, αόριστα κι ακραία"¨, όπως πχ τι κα(β)λώδια είχαν στο SACD?:135:

Εξ'άλλου, ουδείς κατέχει το "αλάθητο"... πλην ίσως του "πάππα" (όπως κάποιοι υποστηρίζουν)....

Και όλοι θα κάνουν λάθος αν ακούσουν από το σκληρό mp3 αλλά με τον ενισχυτή συνδεδεμένο με τα ηχεία με καλώδια Goertz, και στην ακρόαση με το SACD το καλώδιο ηχείων να είναι της τοστιέρας του Κόγια, αυτής που πήρε προσφορά μαζί με τον προενισχυτή των 30 χιλιάρικων, ξέρεις, μαζί με τη μηχανή εσπρέσο...
 

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Re: Απάντηση: Re: SA-CD vs HD

Εξ'άλλου, ουδείς κατέχει το "αλάθητο"... πλην ίσως του "πάππα" (όπως κάποιοι υποστηρίζουν)....
Επειδή ήξεραν το τι πρόκειται να ειπωθεί, πρόλαβαν και είπαν το... κοσμοϊστορικό:

"THE BIT-ER TRUTH"

Γιατί "Το ξεβόλεμα πολλοί εμίσησαν! Το βόλεμα ουδείς!"

:135::135::135:
 

Κώστας Φ.

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Πες τα, πες τα !!
Ειδικά αυτός ο CostasEAR πολύ του βολέματος ρε παιδί μου! Όλο τον εύκολο δρόμο επιλέγει!
 

themiloc

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Παντως εμενα μου αρεσε πιο πολυ το dvd audio.

Όλα τα καταλαβαίνω αλλά να συγκρίνονται δύο πανομοιότυπα wav, το ένα στον σκληρό και το άλλο σε DVD-a, μου είναι δύσκολο να το εννοήσω. Αν υπάρχει ένας λόγος να ακούγονται διαφορετικά, είναι μόνον γιατί ο σκληρός υπερτερεί λόγω σοβαρού μπάφερ.
Το να συγκρίνει κάποιος το SACD με το PCM έχει ίσως βάση γιατί είναι διαφορετικά φορμά.
Δεν παύουν όμως να περιέχουν και τα δύο την ύψιστη ανάλυση και να αξιοποιούν τα συστήματα που αγοράσαμε.
 


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